Lucky I failed my test 4 times!!!! 
charles and camilla
Re: charles and camilla
Me too lol!!!! Lucky I failed my test 4 times!!!!
Lucky I failed my test 4 times!!!! Re: charles and camilla
lol... i have not tried... not interested in polluting the planet
Re: !!
Well, someday we'll have rail systems etc. here so that people don't have to drive, but here, unless you're in a major city, you pretty much need a car to make a living...shocking as it is.mark wrote:fucking hell yet again you are talking shit andrew - no in this country the only people who pay towards roads are those who actually OWN CARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! d'uh!!!! it's called 'road tax', and only those who actually have cars pay for it... man i don't know what sort of fucked up country you live in but it's not one i'm interested in!!!!! and of course as with the nhs and fire departments u have to pay for it because u may need it but d'uh - really how fucking thick are you??? i know ur american but please stop showing just how stupid you are - those are things that anyone may need to use - universities and roads are specific to only those that use it - the fire department and nhs are things that people may never use but that are open to use by anyone - the others are specific to certain society groups - man for all your education it appears really u know nothing at all!!!!! and of course people should pay taxes twoards schools because that is something everyone has had use of... god andrew u do talk out of ur arse right???!!!!
If we think of universities as an extension of school (13th grade or whatever), how would it be any different than regular school?
mark wrote:Everything that's wrong with sunshine can be explained by the fact that he doesn't eat meat!!!!
Re: charles and camilla
because universities is an opt in system of higher education for those who chose to/who are clever enough to and school is a system that is provided for everyone... I will never in my life use a university but I may well probably use my fire service, police or national health service which is why I pay my council tax and national insurance... of course there is a chance I won't use them but it's likely at some point in my life I will need them... I will never be university educated because I chose not to be so why should I pay for those that do???.... And of course council tax quite rightly covers ordinary schools/education and I am well prepared to pay my taxes towards that - as it is actually a system/service that for many years I had use of and if I had children a service they would use too!!!!!
I feel like I am having to spell out a pretty obvious, straight forward point!!!!
And of course here too unless you're in a major city a car or similar transport is pretty essential - but as I said that is why owner drivers pay car tax - for use of the roads... I don't pay it because I don't own a car - and if I use a taxi or bus then the money I am charged in a single journey is meant to account for a percentage towards the owners use of such resources as tax, petrol, insurance etc etc... anyway buses are council services so that is covered by my council tax... so for every one of your points raised there is an answer and you can't deny that it is wrong to expect those who will never use a university to pay for those who do...
sorry for being a bit rude in my previous post to you btw lol - maybe a little too harsh in my frustration!!!
oh and I don't hate all students or university educated people - just those who insist on raising dumb points!!! 
sorry harsh again I know.... 
Don't worry just a difference of opinion (again!) it doesn't matter!!!! 
I feel like I am having to spell out a pretty obvious, straight forward point!!!!
And of course here too unless you're in a major city a car or similar transport is pretty essential - but as I said that is why owner drivers pay car tax - for use of the roads... I don't pay it because I don't own a car - and if I use a taxi or bus then the money I am charged in a single journey is meant to account for a percentage towards the owners use of such resources as tax, petrol, insurance etc etc... anyway buses are council services so that is covered by my council tax... so for every one of your points raised there is an answer and you can't deny that it is wrong to expect those who will never use a university to pay for those who do...
sorry for being a bit rude in my previous post to you btw lol - maybe a little too harsh in my frustration!!!
oh and I don't hate all students or university educated people - just those who insist on raising dumb points!!! sorry harsh again I know.... Don't worry just a difference of opinion (again!) it doesn't matter!!!! Re: charles and camilla
Ok, but you're still thinking of universities and schools as separate systems; what if they were both mandatory? Of course, you could still drop out, just as here you can drop out of school when you're 16...but in general, that's not the wisest thing to do.
"you can't deny that it is wrong to expect those who will never use a university to pay for those who do..."
No, because people who are university educated benefit ALL OF US. It's the same reason why it's a tragedy that there are people in certain countries who will never even have the basic education we have by the time we're teenagers...think of how much untapped talent/potential is there, just as here, there are people who might never be able to invent something or come up with a business model that will benefit everyone, simply because they don't have easy access to a university education...
I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with not being university-educated...actually, over here, you could argue that the problem is that there aren't enough blue-collar laborers (we have plenty of people with MBA's...where are the plumbers, handymen, etc?) But with a change in the way we currently view education, we could see universities as the logical, guaranteed stepping stone after high school (or whatever you call it over there), not a completely separate system.
And at least in this city, the buses are partially funded by taxes...but I don't complain, even though I don't take the bus, because it's in the greater public good if the buses keep running...
"you can't deny that it is wrong to expect those who will never use a university to pay for those who do..."
No, because people who are university educated benefit ALL OF US. It's the same reason why it's a tragedy that there are people in certain countries who will never even have the basic education we have by the time we're teenagers...think of how much untapped talent/potential is there, just as here, there are people who might never be able to invent something or come up with a business model that will benefit everyone, simply because they don't have easy access to a university education...
I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with not being university-educated...actually, over here, you could argue that the problem is that there aren't enough blue-collar laborers (we have plenty of people with MBA's...where are the plumbers, handymen, etc?) But with a change in the way we currently view education, we could see universities as the logical, guaranteed stepping stone after high school (or whatever you call it over there), not a completely separate system.
And at least in this city, the buses are partially funded by taxes...but I don't complain, even though I don't take the bus, because it's in the greater public good if the buses keep running...
mark wrote:Everything that's wrong with sunshine can be explained by the fact that he doesn't eat meat!!!!
Re: charles and camilla
Some of the world's most successful businessmen (Sir Richard Branson and Sir Alan Sugar for two instances) were never university educated and in fact never even completed basic school so it proves that you can be as successful as you wish with or without a university education so again I can't agree that it is in anyway appropriate for me to pay for such a system - especially when some of the most qualified people in the world can still be pretty useless individuals - especially doctor's!!!!! And as I said through all the other taxes I pay for my services I use for which many of the most educated people are involved (health as an example) I think it's a bit much to also be expected to pay for how they were educated - that was their choice!!! I pay for my doctors and nurses and those who had to study hard through many years from my taxes - why should I have to pay for them twice over???!!!!
Oh and universities are not mandatary and until they are I see no purpose in taking a hypothetical point any further... If universities become mandatary it is a completely different situation...
Oh and universities are not mandatary and until they are I see no purpose in taking a hypothetical point any further... If universities become mandatary it is a completely different situation...
Re: charles and camilla
No, I don't think formal education is necessarily required, but just as we take basic education ("Ok, Jimmy, what's 1 + 1?") for granted, I don't see why we can't add universities/professional training to the same arena. My problem with the whole "you don't NEED" XYZ argument is that while it's technically true, the element of luck is never pointed out (similar argument: "Hey, Mr. X won the Powerball lottery...so can I!"). And yes, I'm proposing we make universities mandatory.
mark wrote:Everything that's wrong with sunshine can be explained by the fact that he doesn't eat meat!!!!
Re: charles and camilla
Well if they are mandatory that is another matter as I said and more and more people have been taking up further education of some sort (at least until the age of 18 rather than the many that used to leave school at 16) so maybe one day it will be mandatory - and of course I am not in anway way trying to suggest that universities are not necessary - in certain areas of course such as criminalogy, health specialists (just two examples) it is essential...
The point I was trying to make was that with the current university system I think it's unfair that I should be expected in your eyes to help shoulder the burden of responsibilty in paying off a university graduates debts when I don't use such a system and for the services I do use I already pay my taxes... One final point on this - you said previously you think it is fair and acceptable for a non university educated person to pay towards the tuition fees of university graduates. This is of course despite the fact that under the proposed system of fee increases students would not be expected to pay off their debt until they have graduated and found employment in a job with a high pay level... Which of course would mean that you would expect a low income wage earner like myself who has not had the benefit of a university education to help pay the debts of someone who has since graduated and is now in a highly paid job in which they could be earning 5 or 6 or even many more times the annual wage that I am!!!! How on earth could that possibly be fair that the poorest in society are expected to pay off the debts of the richest for a system that they have never even had the benefit of???!!!!
case closed methinks....!!! Maybe you should start demonstrating for mandatory higher education!!!!! However my argument against that would simply be that there are some people who are not clever enough or simply would not want to go into university education - and some people who are focussed on a job/career path where a university education is completely unnecessary - these days it often seems that lower level courses, training, apprenticeships and work placements are just as successful at giving people the opportunities to succeed in life - I actually think university is quite pointless for many people who are not looking to move into very specific career paths when they graduate - I have heard of many people who when they have graduated have ending up doing a 9-5 job like the majority of society... All that time and money spent for the outcome a job that most people could achieve.... And as I said some people in life just don't want to go down that route - some people are just happy working in a shop, driving a taxi, working in a office, cleaning the streets - things for which a university degree would be pointless - maybe with your suggestion the system has to be overhauled completely - because quite simply there are people who don't have any interest in wanting to become a doctor, architect, scientist... etc
I am all for a society that strives for equality but what we need to understand is that people in society are very different and not everyone is equal - and some people are much more academically capable than others - that's just a fact... We should embrace the differences in society and not try and create a world full of university educated clones... The world is becoming a boring enough place as it is!!!!
The system is there to use if people want it - and it is not a case of if they can afford it because yet again I stress the point that the suggestion is that debts will be paid back AFTER the student has graduated and has found a highly paid job sufficient enough to pay off the debts owed and not while the person is studying.... The rights and wrongs of a fee increase and the fact the Liberal Democrat Party broke their election promise NOT to raise fees is another matter entirely...
The point I was trying to make was that with the current university system I think it's unfair that I should be expected in your eyes to help shoulder the burden of responsibilty in paying off a university graduates debts when I don't use such a system and for the services I do use I already pay my taxes... One final point on this - you said previously you think it is fair and acceptable for a non university educated person to pay towards the tuition fees of university graduates. This is of course despite the fact that under the proposed system of fee increases students would not be expected to pay off their debt until they have graduated and found employment in a job with a high pay level... Which of course would mean that you would expect a low income wage earner like myself who has not had the benefit of a university education to help pay the debts of someone who has since graduated and is now in a highly paid job in which they could be earning 5 or 6 or even many more times the annual wage that I am!!!! How on earth could that possibly be fair that the poorest in society are expected to pay off the debts of the richest for a system that they have never even had the benefit of???!!!!
case closed methinks....!!! Maybe you should start demonstrating for mandatory higher education!!!!!
However my argument against that would simply be that there are some people who are not clever enough or simply would not want to go into university education - and some people who are focussed on a job/career path where a university education is completely unnecessary - these days it often seems that lower level courses, training, apprenticeships and work placements are just as successful at giving people the opportunities to succeed in life - I actually think university is quite pointless for many people who are not looking to move into very specific career paths when they graduate - I have heard of many people who when they have graduated have ending up doing a 9-5 job like the majority of society... All that time and money spent for the outcome a job that most people could achieve.... And as I said some people in life just don't want to go down that route - some people are just happy working in a shop, driving a taxi, working in a office, cleaning the streets - things for which a university degree would be pointless - maybe with your suggestion the system has to be overhauled completely - because quite simply there are people who don't have any interest in wanting to become a doctor, architect, scientist... etcI am all for a society that strives for equality but what we need to understand is that people in society are very different and not everyone is equal - and some people are much more academically capable than others - that's just a fact... We should embrace the differences in society and not try and create a world full of university educated clones... The world is becoming a boring enough place as it is!!!!
The system is there to use if people want it - and it is not a case of if they can afford it because yet again I stress the point that the suggestion is that debts will be paid back AFTER the student has graduated and has found a highly paid job sufficient enough to pay off the debts owed and not while the person is studying.... The rights and wrongs of a fee increase and the fact the Liberal Democrat Party broke their election promise NOT to raise fees is another matter entirely...
Re: charles and camilla
I'm all for the "we just disagree" resolution, but I want to clear up two things:
"Which of course would mean that you would expect a low income wage earner like myself who has not had the benefit of a university education to help pay the debts of someone who has since graduated and is now in a highly paid job in which they could be earning 5 or 6 or even many more times the annual wage that I am!!!! How on earth could that possibly be fair that the poorest in society are expected to pay off the debts of the richest for a system that they have never even had the benefit of???!!!!"
But see, I'm not in favor of flat taxation...I think that people who earn more should be taxed at higher rates, which I said earlier...if someone's earning, say, five times as much as you, they should pay at least five times as much as you in taxes (preferably even more, though).
"However my argument against that would simply be that there are some people who are not clever enough or simply would not want to go into university education - and some people who are focussed on a job/career path where a university education is completely unnecessary - these days it often seems that lower level courses, training, apprenticeships and work placements are just as successful at giving people the opportunities to succeed in life - I actually think university is quite pointless for many people who are not looking to move into very specific career paths when they graduate"
I really think the same can be said of high school (and whatever your equivalent is)...and that's why you can drop out when you're 16. If you're 17 and have the business plan that's going to make you a millionaire, knock yourself out; ditch the school and go finish up your plans.
"Which of course would mean that you would expect a low income wage earner like myself who has not had the benefit of a university education to help pay the debts of someone who has since graduated and is now in a highly paid job in which they could be earning 5 or 6 or even many more times the annual wage that I am!!!! How on earth could that possibly be fair that the poorest in society are expected to pay off the debts of the richest for a system that they have never even had the benefit of???!!!!"
But see, I'm not in favor of flat taxation...I think that people who earn more should be taxed at higher rates, which I said earlier...if someone's earning, say, five times as much as you, they should pay at least five times as much as you in taxes (preferably even more, though).
"However my argument against that would simply be that there are some people who are not clever enough or simply would not want to go into university education - and some people who are focussed on a job/career path where a university education is completely unnecessary - these days it often seems that lower level courses, training, apprenticeships and work placements are just as successful at giving people the opportunities to succeed in life - I actually think university is quite pointless for many people who are not looking to move into very specific career paths when they graduate"
I really think the same can be said of high school (and whatever your equivalent is)...and that's why you can drop out when you're 16. If you're 17 and have the business plan that's going to make you a millionaire, knock yourself out; ditch the school and go finish up your plans.
mark wrote:Everything that's wrong with sunshine can be explained by the fact that he doesn't eat meat!!!!
Re: charles and camilla
rubbish... whatever u think about the levels of tax (and of course those who earn more should be taxed more heavily, which they are of course!!!) the fact is I should not have to pay towards the debts of university graduates - full stop end of discussion... It's a total nonsense to suggest I should... And for all the reasons I have previously given - I can't be bothered to continue with this anymore because it's clear you disagree but tha facts speak for themselves - you're wrong!!!!